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2stroke generations
All250R
#1 Posted : Friday, December 12, 2008 2:49:34 AM(UTC)

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I'm not glued to organized racing for sure, but I thought the AMA forced riders to run OEM frames and in some cases (I heard) blatantly ruled out running the 250R. If that's true, then they've done exactly what you said. It makes sense becuase that brings the OEM market to the headlines. I don't want anyone telling me what i can't ride either, but I can't go down and buy a 2008 CR250. I don't have the choice anymore.

I think we all know the current ATV 2stroke like the Banshee and 250R will never be back. I think our best hope to have 1:1 crank:fire type of engine back is DI.

For me as a rider in the seat the preference is about feel, not maintenance. Anyone can throw displacement on a motor and/or wind it nice and tight to make it a more poweful or more adept motor. The same can be done for 2strokes though. As a platform I don't see that the 450 has unique technology that makes it a clear cut better choice than a 2stroke.

The 4stroke platform competing for 250cc 2stroke owner's money has problems and it sounds like it's becoming more apparent to stakeholders. Each platform has their merit and place. 2strokes are naturally better at lightweight, simple, high performance. Naturally aspirated 4strokes are better for reliable, low emissions, low maintenance applications. Making a 4stroke run to take on the amitions that a 2stroke does easily doesn't make it a more suitable motor, it makes it a workaround; but maybe most pertinent is when it's a riders only choice like it's becoming, all those parts sales that didn't have to exist before makes it a profit center.

Market a 450cc 2stroke and I really don't think many will be lining up to buy cams for their 450R.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction - Albert Einstein

http://www.all250r.com
All250R
#2 Posted : Tuesday, July 28, 2009 12:01:39 AM(UTC)

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I created this reply on a technical 2stroke board hoping to raise hopes about the future of 2strokes as a technology. I thought I'd post it here too.
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Marketing. Marketing is the answer. The technology and the product are almost completely secondary. If the product sells itself, you can spend less on marketing, but let it be absolutely clear that products on the verge of failure have succeeded with an overhaul in marketing. One example that I always use is the successful thighmaster exercise fad gadget that we all remember. The original owner marketed it as a total body fitness solution. The new owner buying the rights for dirt cheap, picked up Suzanne Summers and pointed the application at one body part – thighs. An inferior product with an excellent marketing strategy (we all know diet and exercise is the product people really need to buy).

As technologists we aren’t necessarily good marketers. There are occasional occurrences like Bill Gates, Jobs who make it well in both worlds, but from what I gather, it’s more the exception rather than the rule. It’s just a completely different discipline.

Another good marketing example is the 4stroke “revolution” itself! In the 90’s 4 strokes in the offroad market were not the high performance platform. 2strokes were, and everyone knew it. No one was racing an XR400 in the supercross. No one. That was the job of the 2stroke and was obvious. So, now we have 4strokes in the supercross and everyone buying 450’s – a completely shift in a long running held belief and product landscape. Why? Marketing. If you look at history, it’s unbelievable the things you can sell the public with the right marketing and in the political arena, propaganda. Don’t underestimate the inability of people to think for themselves. That’s a harsh way to say it, but it’s not untrue and it can and will be capitalized on, over and over and over, every single day.

Now give the public a good product and some decent marketing and it will take over the marketplace, as you said, overnight (you wouldn’t go back to VHS over the DVD right?) Besides, didn’t it already happen when 2strokes came onto the GP scene, (when the displacement rules weren’t bent to allow an inferior performance engine to compete - which is a tentacle again, of marketing)? I can’t remember where I read it honestly, but I believe Honda prior said they would never make 2strokes. But soon after they realized they had to compete to sell a bike and were forced to make and sell them. The point is that 2strokes have taken over before in large part because the product has overwhelming merit in high performance engines. Again, good product, good marketing will equal a sales following. Stated from that broad level, I don’t think it’s a matter of opinion or speculation.

Lastly, the pain is swelling in people who are paying the maintenance bill for high performance 4strokes. Evinrude capitalizes on this in their advertisements very heavily. There is a youtube video of an ad of theirs where the shop a customer goes in to pay his bill at actually kicks him in the crotch as a metaphor for the cost associate with maintaining his 4stroke. They also hit on emissions. They claim their engines have fewer emissions than 4strokes even. With the emissions technical hurdle out of the way, the rest is up to marketing professionals to sell the rest of the advantages.

I’m not pessimistic about the future of widespread use of DI bikes in terrestrial applications – at all. That kind of conviction will be required to see it through too. You have to believe strongly in your vision if you want it to materialize. We’re all accomplished people in here and we know that first hand probably many times over already. Don’t have doubt.
* 2stroke have made 4strokes irrelevant before.
* Inferior products make lots of money all the time with the right marketing.
* 2strokes can easily be a superior performance product than a comparable 4stroke.
It CAN be done.
Any intelligent fool can make things bigger and more complex... It takes a touch of genius - and a lot of courage to move in the opposite direction - Albert Einstein

http://www.all250r.com
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